Burial at Dinard

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default Burial at Dinard

Message par Admin-absa le Mer 9 Juil 2008 - 12:18

Hello Rob,

I answer my mail sent privately on the forum.
I sent the mail in private to open the subject.

In response to my question on the possibility of the body found on the beach at St Cast on 18 May 44 and a possible link with the crew of Wellington X HE 386, 466 sqn, lost 16/17-5-1943.
I am of the opinion of Rob, and too much distance between the place of his fall on Wednesday and found the body the next day.

As we have no further loss at that date of 17 May 43.
What can we deduce about this body to Dinard.
This dated 17 May 43, is the date recorded his discovery or the death of the F/O.
What is strange is that we have no losses, except those of W / O. Daly and W / Cdr Ivins.
Indeed, the dates of death are different.
But I am sure, the two men died in the crash of their Mosquito on the same day of 17 May.
They died every two burned. I have several testimonies.

I think it is preferable now to find the archives of the Red Cross.

Give me the address and I'll start searching.
We have nothing more in the archives of the gendarmerie for this body to St Cast.


Thanks, Dan, good job. These are my remarks:

1. If the date mentioned on the headstone, 17-05-1943, is the date of death, and not
the date of burial, then this body cannot have washed ashore near Dinard on the date
of the crash, that took place 70 miles South of The Lizzard, Cornwall. The body
cannot have travelled the sea distance to Saint Cast in one day only. That's about
160 km in a straight line. In this sea area a body would travel at an average speed
of 5 km/day. That amounts to about 160/5 = 32 days. Or much longer, and not much
shorter.

The Germans cannot normally have known the date of death of a body that washed
ashore. The Germans can only have known the date of death, if they fished the body
from the water directly after a crash. The exception would be if the body carried a
calendar, still readable, with dates crossed out.

If the Germans would have fished the body from the water directly after a crash, and
if we can find a document to prove this, then we could have a positive and easy
identification. More on possible locations of such a document below.

2. If the date mentioned on the headstone is the date that the body was found,
either in the water or washed ashore, then the things that I wrote previously apply.
Several candidates, and no positive identification if we do not have more data.

3. The unknown casualty, no date or service mentioned on the headstone, is likely to
have been a badly decomposed body that washed ashore. If there are no more details
documented anywhere, then we have no chance to identify it. We do not even have a
chance to use statistics, to calculate a likelyhood that the body belongs to this or
that person. The British would not accept a likelyhood for an identification, they
require proof that is 100% watertight. But a likelyhood could help us to find ways
to more data. So, without DNA technology, and a DNA database to compare results
with, there is no chance to identify this one.

Possible locations of more data:

1. The Dinard archives.
2. The regional Red Cross archive, if Germans and/or Gendarmerie copied their
reports to the Red Cross.
3. The CWGC archive, if the MR&ES has found German data, or has received Red Cross
data.

ad. 1: You know the way to nr. 1.

ad. 2: The regional Red Cross archive would be a good alternative. You shall find
contact details in the Web. If there is information, then this is in reach in weeks
rather than many months. As the information in the historical Red Cross archive is
of a sensitive nature, you may have to invest some time to gain trust. The RC
archive is not closed, but you need to talk your way into it.

ad. 3.a.: The CWGC archive is not classified, but it is not really open either. You
could ask, but it would be best if such a request came from an official party.
Otherwise the CWGC may say that they are too busy to answer the request, or ignore
it totally. So, if you could arrange a letter to the CWGC, on official paper, say
from the Ministry of Defence in France, or l'Association des Ancien Combattants,
then there would be a chance.

ad. 3.b.: An alternative would be to submit an identity claim to the Ministry of
Defence in England, even if we know that the claim is not watertight. The MoD would
ask the CWGC for data from the archive, and this would be given. In the MoD's
response, we shall find that data. The drawback is that the process could easily
take 18 months or more.

I shall be happy to assist, if you wish, if letters/requests in English need to be
written.

Regards,

Rob
Hi Dan,

Two more questions:

1. Can you give me the grave numbers for the two unknowns buried in Dinard? Would
one be A/7 or A/10, next to W/Cdr Ivins or W/O Daly?

2. The CWGC mentions W/O. Daly as died 17-05-1943, and W/Cdr Ivins as 18-05-1943.
The ABSA website mentions 17-05-1943. Is the CWGC data confused, as so often, or do
you have information that W/Cdr Ivins indeed died the day after the crash?

As you no doubt know, the other aviator burials in Dinard do not offer a connection
to the unknown dated 17-05-1943.

Regards,

Rob

_________________
Cordialement
Dan, ABSA 39-45

"Dans une guerre, quel que soit le camp qui puisse se déclarer vainqueur, il n'y a pas de gagnants, il n'y a que des perdants. Neville Chamberlain"
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default Re: Burial at Dinard

Message par Invité le Mer 9 Juil 2008 - 12:36

Thanks, Dan. I still would like to know the grave numbers of the two unknowns in Dinard. Red Cross contact data in Brittany shall be dug up, and send to your email address.

Regards,

Rob

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default Re: Burial at Dinard

Message par Admin-absa le Mer 9 Juil 2008 - 15:00

Rob,

UNKNOWN F/O. 17 may 1943. R.A.G 10
Nationality UNKNOWN : R.A.G 11
Voir photograph : http://www.absa39-45.asso.fr/DINARD/dinardcimetiere.htm#LES%20INCONNUS

_________________
Cordialement
Dan, ABSA 39-45

"Dans une guerre, quel que soit le camp qui puisse se déclarer vainqueur, il n'y a pas de gagnants, il n'y a que des perdants. Neville Chamberlain"
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